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Sunday, 4 January 2009

So Israel’s incursion into Gaza is “defensive not offensive.” Bollocks!; it’s a Fucking Offensive display of disproportional force.


Chris Ripple said...

If a snake bites you then you don't wait for it to do it again, you cut it's fucking head off !

If it was occurring here in England from Scotland or Wales then we would have bombed the fuckers flat before invading, the same as the U.S.A would if it happened to them from bases in Mexico or Canada...

Disproportional force ?
Tell it to the residents of Hiroshima or Dresden.
(Or Auschwitz, Treblinka, Belsen and the rest...)

There is only one question with no qualifying if's or but's and think very carefully before you answer it.
Does the state of Israel have a right to peaceful existence ?

If you answer no, then please have the courage of your convictions, and nail your colours to the wall by joining your local Nazi party.

It might make you a fascist but at least it won't make you a fuckin' hypocrite !!!!!!!!!!

Nuzz Prowlin' Wolf said...

If everyone bitten by a snake chopped or tried to chop the next snake they saw’s head off, you’d either have no snakes left, or a lot of angry snakes ready to bite the next human they saw. Much the same as what’s been going in Gaza. Israel trying to take out Hamas, and making them angry, no wonder a few Israelis are gonna get bitten, but nowhere near as many as there have been Palestinians with their heads chopped off. Every nation has the right to live in peace, but the situation in the Middle East has gone beyond who started it. It just needs finishing. A couple of things to remember, In the bigger picture the real politiks is between the US and Iran, and also the Israeli elections are coming up in February.
I noticed Ireland was omitted from your list, was that because Britain tried to “bomb the fuckers flat” on occasion like Bloody Sunday and failed, causing a whole lot more shit and a real terror threat, that went on for years. If it weren’t for Western guilt about Auschwitz, Belsen etc, no one would have any time for Israel and it’s constant aggression towards it’s neighbours. Lets not forget Israel’s attacks on Lebanon a few years back . This is a humanitarian issue that transcends borders and Palestinians have the right to their own nation state, it’s what they’re fighting for, and all the while women and children are dying, Western leaders continue to do nothing, and tolerate Israel’s behaviour, just like they did with the concentration camps. The only fascists and hypocrites are the leaders of the so called “free world”

Anonymous said...

Canada would never bomb the USA - it would be the other way around.


Chris Ripple said...

Good! You opened it up, I'll be back.

Chris Ripple said...

Sincere apologies for the delay, but family shit got in the way.

Right, here we go...
While agreeing in broad terms that the sooner the conflict ends and then everyone can live in peace or whatever passes for it in that region, let's cut the emotion and rhetoric and concentrate upon facts and those alone and start to work backwards from the day I first posted a comment.

Why did Israel level it ?
Well, for starters, Hamas (who don't actually talk for all Palestinians, just one region of them) called off a cease fire that had held for the previous six months and fired over one hundred missiles into Israel...
While this 'so called' cease fire was in place Hamas had fired off an average of three missiles per week into Israel and Israel had not responded other than to put pressure on the U.N. to get them to stop.
The fact that Israel had monitored where they had been fired from is also quite obvious as those areas were the first to be 'taken out' when they fired back.
Now if we can cut the emotive sentiments I'd like to pose a few questions, to whit:
Gaza has a larger beach area than Israel so why don't Hamas fire missiles from the beach ?
Nobody lives on it so why not ?
Why do they fire them off from built up areas ?
If an organisation as cynical as that is prepared to fire them from the centre of a town then you have to ask what their motives were in doing so ?
Could it be that they wanted the whole area to rise up as one and declare war on Israel, but with what ?
Propaganda ?
Hamas' stated idealogy is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth and their cynicism in using innocent civilians in their aims is, in all honesty, quite despicable, and no amount of standing there in the ruins of their infrastructure after sending off those missiles while screaming 'Help... I'm being Oppressed' is going to change that salient fact.

Why didn't I mention Ireland ?
Because it is not joined to mainland Britain and is and was therefore a totally different situation, but now the leaders of Sinn Fein sit at the same tables in Northern Ireland as their Unionist foes.
Besides, if you want to bring Ireland into the equation then you'd have to go back to the days of Henry the Second and he died in the 1180's and in all honesty I can't be arsed to go back that far.
As for the Lebanon situation, if you read history you will find that Israel was attacked in 1967 by the Egyptians (supplied by U.S.S.R.) and history calls it the 'Six Day War'.
Egypt signed up for peace in 1978 at the Camp David agreement and a couple of years later Anwar Sadat who had signed it was assassinated... and not by an Israeli.
In 1973 The Syrians invaded and tried again (again with weapons supplied by the U.S.S.R.) and history calls it the 'Yom Kippur War'.
The Syrians were also repulsed...
and an organisation named Hezbollah came into being, based in Lebanon (which also borders Israel) to further their aims in the region and which included sending indiscriminate missiles into Israel.
Why do the Israeli's fight back ?
What other option were they left with ?
Try and find one instance of Israel starting a conflict or war...
There isn't one. They've retaliated to aggression and are forced to do it still, and when you are at war (which sadly they seem to be) then you are going to have civilian casualties but disproportional force ?
I don't think you can use that argument when you're at war as the reason we used it in WW2 was to bring the end of the war nearer.
We can't use it and then expect the rest of the world not to, as that would really be hypocritically stupid, wouldn't it ?

So, does the state of Israel have the right to live in peace ?
Yes, it does and the Palestinians have the same right, but to do that some of their politicians are going to have to change their tune and talk instead of firing off missiles as that is the only way peace will come to the region.

As for guilt over what happened nearly seventy years ago ?
I don't have any as I hadn't even been born.

As an afterthought, you could always blame the current conflict on the British and the French who 'carved up' the whole region after WW1 after reneging on their promises to their allies (The Arabs) who had swept the Turks out of the region...
But then Britain and France are quite well known for that, ain't they ?

Fascists ?
It might feel like that sometimes but if they really were do you think blogs like yours, or mine for that matter, would be allowed to exist ?
Both you and I, and I suspect a lot of people we know, would have been 'Disappeared' a long time ago.

Keep on Rocking In The Free World...
Peace and Love and stuff.


IMI said...

I'm sure your up on more of the historic details between Israel and Hamas than I am. I observed a lot of similarities between Gaza and what happened in Fallujah (2004?):

-The civilian population were trapped. No exits or entrance. No access to humanitarian aid. Gaza's borders closed and Fallujah was surrounded.

-Both Hamas and al Qaeda hid behind dense population areas to carry out their attacks.

-Both Hamas and al Qaeda had more resources than most of the civilian population - they were able to leave and left inhabitants defenseless. That also means a higher than usual proportion of the poor, women, children, old, sick, disabled. That's not a pretty picture.

-Both Hamas and al Qaeda regrouped afterwards. al Qaeda gained sympathy from outside areas for being "freedom fighters" - which wasn't something they could do before. Fallujah strengthened al Qaeda and I see no reason why Hamas will be different.

-Both times, orders may have been given to "shoot anything moving" and for "no prisoners". Civilians were under direct fire since following orders to "stay inside" wasn't safe or physically possible.

-Both included reports and injuries (cell phone footage-UTube) of illegal weapon use. Du, dirty bombs, extensive burns, defensive weapons used offensively ... I'm not up on the entire list since it's detailed and extensive. Ditto for Fallujah (The Hidden Massacre).

-Both didn't allow human rights workers or medical and food aid in for an usually long time - highly suspicious for cover-up operations.

-Neither offensive bothered to count inflicted injuries or deaths. Sort of like farm animals.

-Both cities were flattened. The UN described Gaza's destruction "unbelievable, even beyond expecting the worst". That's from an experienced observer who's already seen a lot. BBC used a reporter that stayed behind in Fallujah and showed the first pictures to come out. It was complete destruction that no one could survive. Horrific, even for war and very similar.

-The standards for war were dropped to new lows which became acceptable as the norm. Is this really the direction people want to go in?

-Radiation levels from illegal weapons use probably won't return to a safe level for another 500 years - like most of Iraq. Agriculture is out of the question. So is self-support. Who's going to take care of all the birth defects?

-And the radiation is global. Britain was one of the first to notice higher rates of cancers related to Iraq war pollution. I suspect Gaza will reach the UK sooner.

-So let's talk a little bit about global warming too... War tops the list and should be the first to go for the biggest impact. I haven't heard that mentioned in treaty's or for carbon trading industries and nations.

-I found it chilling to read the same rationalizations from Israel that Bush used to ignore the world. How many others are going to use it too?

-That means holding decision makers accountable for breaking conventions and agreements, including war crimes or it's all crap.

Gaza might resemblance Northern Ireland's battles in that neither party is entirely right or entirely wrong. Yet two wrongs don't make a right either. The problems are so entrenched, for so many generations, it doesn't matter anymore. It's little more than a nasty, deadly thinking habit. No glory.

What does matter when someone gets so sick of the needless waste, destruction, death and heartbreak, they stubbornly resolve to end the cycle of violence, no matter what. Didn't mothers start asking for peace in Northern Ireland? I believe it was mother's that revolted in Bolivia too. They are the only hero's.

Action doesn't require nations or organizations anymore. Just takes people, lots of them, realizing they don't have to be bystanders anymore. Personally, I suspect fear of people taking independent action, collectively, is more likely the basis for all this good-evil polarization going on right now. We're supposed to pick a side and follow the leader. Not as individuals acting independently.


Anyway, thanks for the topic and opportunity to vent.